What’s it like to fight for vaping in a world hostile to tobacco harm reduction? Advocate Skip Murray opens up about the soul-crushing closure of her vape shop, the rise of media scare tactics, and why she believes kindness—not outrage—is the key to saving lives.
Featuring:
SKIP MURRAY
Volunteer Public Health Advocate
THR Advocate, Former Vape Shop Owner
Skip Murray on X
skipscorner.substack.com
Transcription:
[Brent Stafford] (00:09 - 01:21)
Hi, I'm Brent Stafford, and welcome to another edition of RegWatch on GFN.TV. Being a tobacco harm reduction advocate is not for the faint of heart. Day in and day out, you're hit with an onslaught of media scare tactics, claiming that vaping is worse than smoking. You witness soul-crushing stories of vape shop owners barely holding on, businesses that exist solely to help smokers quit, now struggling against impossible odds. And you battle the overwhelming urge, the overwhelming urge to shut down the voices online, pushing the anti-vaping narrative. Joining us today is someone uniquely equipped to answer that question, Skip Murray, a dedicated tobacco harm reduction advocate, writer, and former vape shop owner. She's seen it all, from helping smokers to quit to counseling business owners facing ruin, all while championing a simple but powerful idea, hashtag become. but can kindness survive in a war of misinformation? Let's find out. Skip, it's great to have you on the show.
[Skip Murray] (01:22 - 01:24)
Thank you for having me.
[Brent Stafford] (01:24 - 01:34)
Oh, I can't believe it's taken us this long to sit down. I know. First, let me ask you, how frustrating is it to be a tobacco harm reduction advocate?
[Skip Murray] (01:35 - 02:01)
At times it's very frustrating. There are rewards every time you help somebody, every time you legislation that would But most of the time, it's frustrating. There's a lot of misinformation. You spend a lot of time trying to correct the misinformation, and that's time that could be spent helping people
[Brent Stafford] (02:02 - 02:09)
Before we dive deeper please share with our viewers where you're from and why you became an addict.
[Skip Murray] (02:11 - 02:57)
I'm currently in Brainerd, Minnesota, And I started smoking in 1969 when I was and failed many times to quit smoking. And in 2014, my 29 year old son and And we watched the helicopter airlift him away. And my little granddaughter who was Wagner waved at the helicopter. Love you. And my son did survive and he And it from that point on became my mission see another little girl begging her dad
[Brent Stafford] (02:59 - 03:05)
- Oh, that's amazing. up joining the vape shop as an employee.
[Skip Murray] (03:06 - 03:22)
a helper? - Yeah, I didn't get paid. just mom helping out. I worked nights at a group home and my son was a single So it just kind of worked out between the two of to take care of my granddaughter and take
[Brent Stafford] (03:23 - 03:24)
job. But you were a
[Skip Murray] (03:25 - 03:59)
I was. I had tried for many years to quit smoking and just failed over and over. Or I'd quit for a little while and then go back to it. gave up. And then my son started complaining because I would sneak out the back of have a cigarette. And mom, you smell like cigarettes. I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO LOVE THIS. YOU'RE GOING TO LOVE THE SMOKE HERE. went fine and I vaped when I couldn't smoke somehow over four or five months I accidentally
[Brent Stafford] (04:01 - 04:14)
So what was it like then in Minnesota in those first five, ten years? You know, was it a movement? You know, we're trying to convert smokers and how?
[Skip Murray] (04:15 - 05:11)
Oh, it was wonderful back then. There were so many vape shops all over the United States and it just became like it's community. You know most vape shops had a lounge, we had a big sectional couch and people would come in. Every day somebody came in that wanted to quit smoking and they'd hang out and they to each other and as more misinformation happened and regulations came about, it just dwindled. And we really, as the shop started and I kind of lost that community thing. You know, it was fun in the old days. People from all walks of life, you know, there'd be some 70 year old guy and some 25 year old guy Just hang out and talk. open. No, I quit.
[Brent Stafford] (05:13 - 05:15)
And what was that like?
[Skip Murray] (05:16 - 05:53)
to be honest. Again, there was just hardly anybody coming in anymore. People used to believe it was helpful and now they believe it's harmful, and I stayed open way longer than I should have. I was using my own Um... I was devastated to give up helping people, even if you were helping less people, when that's the whole reason you're doing what you're doing, was just devastating.
[Brent Stafford] (05:54 - 06:08)
That's the only word I can think of. - When you think of the messaging from tobacco control, at least for those that are so clearly anti-vaping, from you?
[Skip Murray] (06:08 - 06:34)
That's an interesting question. looked at it that way. in a way it does feel I've always done volunteer work that's my And it's been very hard on my mental health to lose that and transition to doing something else to still be helping people who smoke.
[Brent Stafford] (06:36 - 06:50)
I've been robbed. - And you mention mental health, that is one of the messages you bring to your advocacy around autism and neurodiversity Why don't you talk about that a bit? - It was during the COVID
[Skip Murray] (06:51 - 08:13)
lockdowns where we really isolated in Minnesota, uh, they FOR MANY WEEKS. YOU KNOW, WE HAD TO CHANGE everything at my job at the group home. My husband has COPD. COVID could have killed him, so he quit going anywhere. He just He stayed home for a couple of And I got very depressed and didn't realize how depressed I was until a friend pointed it out to me and I went and seeked help. was moving towards ending my life. I got diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and a few months later, I got diagnosed ADHD, and as I researched nicotine, and smoking, and how to help people, like me are the people who smoke the most. So you really can't from like ID, You know, you've gotta reach out to the people that need you the most, so I have been very open at first. I didn't tell anybody. Um, but now I'm, I'm quite open and write quite often.
[Brent Stafford] (08:15 - 08:35)
to health and about smoking. - Let me ask you, Skip, during the time, let's just go before the shop closed, during say the heyday of vaping and advocacy, what was the media coverage like on vaping back then Has it changed, and if so, how?
[Skip Murray] (08:36 - 09:34)
some negative coverage. I think there is much more of it and it's more. AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD Everybody has a job today. journalists and the publications and the news shows and whatever. And unfortunately, bad news a lot more attention than good news. And so that has escalated. Unfortunately, that has had very impact on public health because I could see it in the less and less people coming in to quit smoking because now they believe that vaping was as harmful or more harmful than smoking. So why try it? Where in the early days people would walk in the door and go, with the babe, you know?
[Brent Stafford] (09:35 - 10:01)
they were ready, willing, and able. It's amazing. I'm not certain about the exact stat right now currently in the US, but in the UK, I believe the number is 85% of current smokers in the UK believe that vaping is more harmful than smoking. Now, that can only happen. because of malicious intent.
[Skip Murray] (10:03 - 11:31)
campaigns, could it not? You know, it quite often feels that way. And I piece that's very negative and GO, WHY DIDN'T THEY TALK TO ANYBODY FROM OUR SIDE? AND IT'S REALLY EASY to go down the trail of conspiracy theories, you know, because it's happening over and and some of them are getting called out for it, and I try to to always put myself in somebody else's shoes. So if I go to American Lung Association for a quote, and they source of information on lung health and I go look at their website they claim that if you switch to vaping, you didn't really quit smoking. our website will tell you that vaping gives you popcornmung. Even if I'm a journalist and I go scope them out, why would I not believe them? there's another side to the story. So I, I, I watched certain groups trying to educate journalists. I've seen some. coverage lately, but not as much as I would like. So there's a term that's
[Brent Stafford] (11:31 - 11:44)
and actually I was confused by it for the first, when I started covering this issue. And the term is, A-N-T-Z. What does that mean?
[Skip Murray] (11:46 - 11:50)
nicotine and tobacco zealots.
[Brent Stafford] (11:52 - 13:23)
Twitter, so it's easier to say ANTS. This is amazing. It was posted in 2011 on the e-cigarette forum, and it's this poster named Kristen who was answering the question about what is the acronym ANTS for, and of course, anti-nicotine tobacco zealot. She writes about them. They are complete aren't up to 99% less hazardous than smoking. They insist that you haven't really quit smoking unless you have quit all forms of nicotine. They'd rather see smokers keep smoking until they get browbeaten into quitting. Rather, see them continue to use a low-risk source of nicotine. They'd ban e-cigarettes just because they look like smoking. They follow the quit or die mantra. Essentially, they are so zealous in their hatred of tobacco and all forms of recreational nicotine that they actually put smokers at greater health risks by denying that there are safer forms of tobacco and nicotine. This is amazing. Unbelievable. It was 14 years ago and this had the ant.
[Skip Murray] (13:24 - 13:31)
dead to rights. I find it frustrating I used to believe that
[Brent Stafford] (13:31 - 13:33)
One of them was willfully
[Skip Murray] (13:33 - 15:14)
And how dare they? You know, I've watched so many of my family members and good friends die from smoking. people like my grandpa, how dare they? I started getting opportunities to talk to some of them. And a lot of them believe that we're the liars. So what do you do? could keep going on social media and I could keep calling them names. You know, aunts and Karens and big pharma shills and, you know, dollars, and what am I going to accomplish when I do that? I'm going to get a whole mess of the vape family to like my tweets. They're going to share my tweets. and I'm going to look to them like I'm saying to them, a hero and meanwhile people like my grandpa keep dying people that believe different me have a stronger voice than I do and I got to thinking if I go on a and I think somebody's wrong and the first thing I call them an aunt. Is that opening their heart to talk to me? Or is that making them defensive and closing I'm nothing but an angry troll, and I'm not worth listening to. That's why I quit using language like that because I want people to
[Brent Stafford] (15:14 - 15:58)
to me. And they're not gonna if I make them angry and defensive first. So let's jump into the issue, and I mentioned that you're a writer. I want to call our viewers' attention to this great piece you wrote in Filter, published in May of 2024, titled In the Upset. nicotine debate, being kind isn't just right, it's effective. In your article, you describe how the nicotine debate has turned into an us versus them war. So how did that happen? Because it is there. tobacco harm reduction, if you do get... know a bit punchy.
[Skip Murray] (15:59 - 18:11)
Again, I got to stop and think about what my goal is. for a long time I acted like a lot of other people do and I had think, why is everybody fighting? What is the backstory? I think I'm right. and we're all tossing names like we're in kindergarten fighting playground, they're not changing my mind. I'm not changing theirs. What's behind this? I'm afraid that all these products are gonna get banned and people are gonna continue to die. I'm afraid they're gonna get banned and people like me using these products so I don't go back to smoking. aren't going to have that option. If I'm that afraid, what are they afraid of? A lot of them are afraid of being by big tobacco because they were duped in the past. And that is a legitimate fear. And a lot of them think of being addicted to something. That has the same meaning to them, no matter what the addiction is. And we've all heard smoking or nicotine is as addictive as heroin. And so in their minds, If a 16 year old is addicted to nicotine, it's like they're, you know, using nicotine the word addiction is just this evil thing. It's evil and to some of them just the loss of autonomy, the getting up and having a choice whether or not you're going to do something is bad enough to them. that it should not be happening to people. I'm trying to understand where they're because that's going to help me determine how I'm going to communicate with them. And I want bridge building and communicating not much, slinging and fighting. A lot of these people are on their to save the world without actually ever talking to them
[Brent Stafford] (18:12 - 18:36)
to say. So they don't know what it's like or what we want or what we need. So you write in your article that you were pretty hard-nosed, hard-headed, you know, personality. Good fight. So what was that like and what changed your mind? - I was a jerk.
[Skip Murray] (18:37 - 20:05)
admit I was a jerk because I am a very nice, caring, compassionate person. But when I first got into advocacy, the advocates I met became my tribe. And that's how they were trying to make sure these products don't get banned. And so I learned from them. front. I didn't question it. I was fighting the fight. You know, I was putting in my time. And then realized I can't name one person whose mind I changed. cities that we've lost the fight. And I went, this isn't working. What do we do? I met Joe Gitchell on Twitter and he does this hashtag make new mistakes. went, well, duh, if it's not working, why are we doing the same thing over and over again? And I just flat out made to break out of my bubble and stop preaching to the choir because they already know them to know. And that's why I changed my, I guess you call it a strategy, I don't know, you know, how I approach this problem. I want to talk to
[Brent Stafford] (20:06 - 20:59)
who are on the fence first because they're the easiest ones and then branch out from there. And you are using the hashtag be kind actually as a visible moniker on your Twitter. You've got a sub stack too as well. Skip's question. dot substack dot com and so forth. So I guess there's two questions. One first, how is the VapeFam, the Vape family reacting to this message? Because of course, it's obviously a message to them and to kind of change their behavior. And then with this new kind of communication any success. or maybe changing some minds? - Yes and yes. The, I get some people who say,
[Skip Murray] (21:01 - 24:30)
I'm not the kind of person who gets the most people who vape once in a while, but I also get the most wonderful messages. And so, and they actually responded to me I tried to be kind. And that's proud mom moment, I don't know. But the best part reaching out In the last couple years, Representative Allison Tant from Florida Um. video of her testifying and she talked about popcorn lung And the big fan of the show. Jumped her and and told the sun rises and sets and I responded kindly and she tweeted the nicest message that more people should advocate like I do because that's what got her to stop and listen. And she has since then, and I'm not even her constituent, she invited me to call her. We had a wonderful conversation on the telephone. She asked really good questions about vaping. She gave me the opportunity to bust a lot of myths, Once then she has times with consumers and vape shop owners in Florida which is where she's from so you can be move the needle. I testified at a city council meeting a few years ago and a woman from one of the volunteer from one of the health groups, I don't remember anymore, heart lung cancer, and And her testimony was awful. Oh, you could just hear the people who they groaning And I tossed my testimony out the window everything she said. And afterwards, we were all standing outside on the sidewalk vaping. And she was not happy with me. we ended up agreeing to go out for coffee and I flat out asked "Why did you tell those lies?" And she said, "Those aren't lies. And she had pamphlets of printed materials from several different places all about The reason she was doing what she you watched your husband die from lung cancer. He smoked and it became for I can never see another wife bury the love of her life because he died from smoking. Isn't that what I'm doing? crying over their sons and granddaughters, crying over their grandfathers. Her and I want the same thing. she was super focused on if they don't start, it won't happen. So she was focused on youth. I'm focused on older people. And by the time our cup of coffee. She did realize that there are a lot of people quit smoking and they need an alternative. And we both agree that kids shouldn't start. That's not appointed. So you can make a difference if you
[Brent Stafford] (24:31 - 25:30)
You give people a chance to talk to you instead of fighting with you. Skip, let's put your hashtag be kind strategy to the test. I'm sure you're familiar with this absolutely grotesque example of shoddy research and media fear mongering that made headlines last month. A so-called bombshell study led by Dr. Maxine Boyden at Manchester Metropolitan University claimed that vaping is just as dangerous as smoking. Well, the study wasn't even published or peer-reviewed, yet major UK tabloids like the Mirror ran with it as fact. So let me ask you, when you take a look at this, you know, it's full on fear-mongering. What was your reaction? apply #BeKind to that researcher, and the mainstream media published
[Skip Murray] (25:32 - 26:21)
- When I first saw that, I was upset. I practice my vocabulary of not nice words. the source, the mirror, it was the mayor, is not a reliable source of information. And that's clickbait gossip. I did a lot of research, like three days worth into the research that I was doing. and the university he's from. I made a separate entry on my I think it's called the study that isn't? my first reaction is really unethical. Why would you be giving out before you've even completed the
[Brent Stafford] (26:22 - 26:27)
It's completely irresponsible. It feels that way to me.
[Skip Murray] (26:28 - 27:45)
absolutely feel to me. So now what do we do? It was like a wildfire. I made a whole long list of that That whatever shared his information. I'm at a loss for words because of this fires me up. On the other hand, what do we do? Should we share all those links? because we're outraged. So should I go on Make my comment and include a link to the article my blog is a whole list of experts who responded how that was. I want to end death by smoking. So whose voice deserves to be amplified? The kindest thing to do for those people who smoke is to amplify the voices of the people who are saying, ethical, this is not science, this isn't how you do things. Instead of amplifying the voices of the people that printed what to me is
[Brent Stafford] (27:46 - 28:13)
- Well, sure. Let's just say, instead of amplifying their voices, I am an active vaping advocate who wants to inflict pain on the researcher. that, you know. for doing this. the be kind part, but is it effective in a situation like this?
[Skip Murray] (28:16 - 29:48)
what is my goal? When I see stuff like that would be so nice to just a verbal version of a two by four and wow. guy with it. What will change if I do that? You know, I saw a the reporter from that original article and and it's in my in my list in the blog I think you commented something about somebody him about the people on the internet and community and yeah, there must be a lot of money he was assuming that that we deserve to be discredited, not the scientists. is feeling today. Yeah. Very frustrating. I think people like Clyde Bates did the right thing. He wrote and expressed his concerns and why they're a concern, researcher and to the university that the researcher is from, and I think that is a better route than trying to just into the dirt, and that's what would feel good. in my tribe field. is to just attack the guy. DOESN'T KEEP HIM FROM DOING THE
[Brent Stafford] (29:48 - 30:38)
Probably not. This already happened. So how do we mitigate the damage and prevent it happening in the future? to address the misunderstandings, misconceptions, and mischaracterizations that are holding back progress for safer nicotine products.
[Skip Murray] (30:38 - 31:21)
Use your voice kindly. I think there's a difference between being a bully and being a critic. And if you approach people with capacity you can conversation. to make sure we never stop using our voices. Consumer voices are not heard enough, and we need to push to be heard. - What do you think of the GFN Conference? - It's amazing. I watch it virtually every year, and it's on my bucket list to go some year. I really appreciate the effort they experts and consumers in the same room and giving everybody a voice.
[Brent Stafford] (31:25 - 31:28)
Marie.