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Brent: Looking ahead to 2023, what do you wish for on behalf of THR?

Harry: I wish for the next cop meeting in Panama where where this is going to be discussed. I mean, it was put off from 2021 because of COVID but they're supposed to be having a debate about these products. And what I hope is that irrespective of what the Framework Convention Secretariat of WHO come up with, that, there will be enough countries, enough member delegates who will turn around and if they're being urged to ban and do all the rest of it, turn around and say, no. We've looked at the evidence, and we don't believe that tough regulation and prohibition is a way to help our population of smokers, and that's what it takes. I mean, the who and the Framework Convention Secretariat are, in a sense, powerless because they can only do what the members tell them to do. Now, the member states, I think, just tend to sort of go with the WHO line because it's easy. You know, you have to think about it, just do what they say, and everyone's happy, and Tedros will give you a medal and everything's fine. But for those countries that actually believe in harm reduction and there are some out there, they should be actually saying, look, we want to set up a working party to look at tobacco harm reduction and not just take it for granted that this is all terrible and awful and we just tell people to regulate everything out of existence and it's in their gift. You need, I think, one state from each of the who regions to get together and say, we want to seriously look at this. You know what it's like in international diplomacy. It's very slow and glacial. So I'm not expecting some magic moment to happen in Panama, but the beginnings of a challenge of this higginamy against tobacco harm reduction would be a very welcome development next year.

Brent: Cecilia, let me ask you, looking ahead to 2023, what do you wish for on behalf of THR?

Cecilia: A more balanced debate and a more inclusive debate. The fact that there are two the the two camps seems to not want to speak to each other. At least we've been trying to talk to opponents, and they don't really want to speak to us. I think that's something I hope that the debate climate becomes more constructive now.

Brent: Do you think that will happen in 2023?

Cecilia: Not really, no.

Brent: What's the worst case scenario then?

Cecilia: From my perspective, the worst case scenario would be harsh legislations around the globe where reduced risk products are being banned whilst cigarettes are still readily available on the market. You see those tendencies in a number of European countries. You see them outside Europe as well. I think that's really problematic from a public health perspective that you that governments are banning the least harmful products. You have them on you have those examples on every continent really.