At GFN25 in Warsaw, Paddy Costall hosts Dorrie Heemskerk and David Williams to tackle risk communication, smarter regulation without bans, and consumer-led tobacco harm reduction—from vapes and pouches to heated tobacco—amid WHO/FCTC headwinds and Europe’s tightening rules.
Transcription:
00:11 - 01:01
[Paddy Costall]
Hi, everyone. It's Paddy Costall from Global Forum on Nicotine. I'm here with a couple of guests for the final commentary team of the day. It's been a very long day, and I hope it's been very useful for everybody who's been involved. And I'd like to introduce the two guests. I've got Dorrie Heemskerk and David Williams. And they're... going to be asked a series of questions about the conference and the themes and what's good and what's not good. We've got about 30 minutes, so I'll start by asking Dori to tell you a little bit about herself and the perspective that she's coming from. What have been the highlights for the first time?
01:01 - 02:42
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
OK, great. Thank you. And so where I come from, I support the trade association, the Dutch trade association for e-cigarettes in the Netherlands. And we have been facing a lot of headwind with regard to e-cigarettes. So there's a lot of restrictions, which is not really helpful, I guess, for consumers. So we've seen a very significant drop in sales, but people didn't change their behavior. So what they did, they had to find their products somewhere else. So they go abroad or they buy it from the back market. So that's a bit the situation where I'm coming from. And it's a very hostile environment for safer products, alternatives for nicotine smoking. So what I experience here is very pleasant because it's all talking to people that understand. Not a hostile environment. Not a hostile environment. No, that's right. So that has really been interesting and also the starting session with Mark Tindall coming from the drugs area and harm reduction in that field and the idea that what he said is in tobacco it's so different. So that was really an eye opener, I guess, to see that. And there's no answer yet. So why is that? So that's interesting.
02:44 - 03:09
[Paddy Costall]
David, I know it's your second visit to the wonderful city of Warsaw. And obviously the background that you have is in a regulatory mess, shall we say, at the moment in the United States. Yeah. And I just wonder what your initial thoughts on the day here and what may be needed in addition.
03:09 - 05:42
[David Williams]
So Paddy, first of all, thank you for putting this together, bringing folks together to talk about this. And I was mentioning to someone the other day that I've been looking at this issue for the past 10 or 15 years. That's not really accurate, because in the mid 1970s, my father smoked 3 and 1 half packs of cigarettes a day. He would load us in the car, roll up the windows, and the car would be filled with smoke. And I didn't realize then what I'd be doing now. And looking back at the mid-70s, I wish these products were available to my father. And this is one of the reasons why we're involved in this issue. It's a taxpayer issue, it's a consumer issue. And to see the innovation that has happened, I mean, obviously since the 1970s, but just in the last 10 or 15 years, has been incredible. And I think today really put a stamp on that, is we heard from Mark, Mark Tindall, and his progression of harm reduction. talking about HIV and talking about drugs and the needle exchange and free needles, and now to tobacco harm reduction, there's a progression here. And that's why it's so important, because this is a health issue. It's a taxation issue, it's a health issue. And then the last panel with Martin Kolop talking about pouches. And my takeaway from that and today has been, you look at governments, they are stagnant. Bureaucracies are stagnant. People are not. People are looking for ways to quit smoking. They've done it with vapes. They've done it with pouches. They've done it with heated tobacco. My goodness, look at Japan, the revolution of heated tobacco in Japan and how it's changing their lifestyles and their health. And this is all about, it's also about taxpayer money. It's because these people, when you improve your health, you're not as much of a burden on the state. But the private sector, the free market, they are innovating. Governments don't innovate. And governments don't listen to the private sector. And we see that with the World Health Organization and how they've ignored these technologies. Yet people are doing this anyway. And the explosion of pouches in the United States has been amazing. I mean, dollar-wise, the amount of people using pouches. And this is only a good thing for people. the more that we can bring these products to market and really market them. I think that's part of the problem is a lot of these products can't be marketed. We should be able to market these products.
05:43 - 06:09
[Paddy Costall]
I think... People always think about the Netherlands as a kind of hippie, liberal society. Anyone who's been there, I think, would probably dispute that. But it's actually quite interesting that it's probably now moving towards being the most harshly regulated market. Absolutely. Certainly within the EU and probably within Europe generally.
06:09 - 07:53
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Yeah, that's right. How does that happen? Well, I guess it started with a political stream that was more from the Christian party. So trying to avoid people to use any substance, I guess. So they were in position for eight years, long years. And so they have initiated changes. And of course, there was a good initiative broadly across the country from also big organizations. It was not only tobacco, but it was also food, etc., which was good, I guess, to try to prevent harmful products from entering the market. but they don't see the distinction between products that can actually help save people. And what we see in statistics is that year on year on year, there's only one third who's trying to seriously quit smoking and the rest, either they are not reached or they are not willing or they've tried and they've given up. But if that group is not reached, you will continue smoking for the next 20 years. And that's, I guess, I also heard people say it is in fact, well they didn't use the word criminal, but in fact they say that keeping away products that can help people to get better or improve health is of course not a good thing.
07:54 - 08:25
[Paddy Costall]
I find it, personally I find it incredibly contradictory that in many countries, the United States is a good example, and most European countries, there is a massive move to legalize or at least decriminalize cannabis. And it seems to me, I might be wrong, but it seems to me that the places that are strongest on trying to legalize or decriminalize are the ones that are strongest against tobacco harm reduction. It's an absurdity.
08:26 - 08:54
[David Williams]
It's absurd, and this is really a fascinating sort of comparison, right? Is that they're saying people should have the freedom to use cannabis, but not the freedom to use tobacco harm reduction products. We have to go through this process in the Food and Drug Administration, the PMTA, the MRTP, this really long, laborious process that costs companies, millions and some companies billions of dollars to get through this process. This should not be happening.
08:55 - 08:56
[Paddy Costall]
Or not to get through the process.
08:56 - 09:11
[David Williams]
Or not to get through the process. It's still going to cost you money. There are millions of applications that are pending at the FDA in the United States. Yet, you're right, states are legalizing cannabis. And if we are truly about freedom, let's take it to the next level with tobacco harm reduction.
09:11 - 09:48
[Paddy Costall]
But I think this is one of the challenges that we face. I think that the... I'm happy that we've got the Global Forum because I think it's the place where people come together and we can exchange views in an open and honest manner. I think that we're always looking to see what's next because by the time we've discussed what's already happened, it's too late. Now, what would you say would be some of the topics that we might need to look at going forward? What are going to be the key areas that we need to look at?
09:48 - 10:59
[David Williams]
Well, I think you started it with this conference is focusing on communication and media. Because as a group, we have been pretty insular. We're talking to each other, you know, a lot. We need to talk to other people. And there are other... There are, what, a billion people that need to be talked to about what these products are. So I think... talking how do we talk to the media, and getting this in the mainstream media, because there are a lot of excellent media folks here, but we need to expand that to the mainstream media, because people are using these products. And what I love about this is, and it's nonpartisan, is that people have all different political views at this conference, but we have one singular focus, are these products. So I think that it's a non-political or apolitical issue that we can communicate. So that's what we need to do is more communication. Because I think the more people find out about these products, the more they're going to shrug their shoulders and say, why are governments preventing me from using this? Why can't I go get pouches? Why can't I get a vape? Why can't I get heated tobacco? I think that's the question they're going to ask when they hear about what's happening.
11:00 - 11:22
[Paddy Costall]
I mean, as I say, it's a long haul. Whether I'll live to see it, I don't know. But you represent a lot of people who are in the business, small retailers, small manufacturers. Is there a wear and tear element where they can just pack up and say, I don't want to do this anymore?
11:22 - 12:08
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Well, it's already happened, I guess, because of all the restrictions, like the flavor ban only allowing 16 ingredients. And that meant that going from like 50 different varieties to like 12. So that means the real vape shops, they were not able to make a living. So they either started selling tobacco products because they had the idea, at least we can still help smokers trying to convince them to use something else, or they just quit. And online sales was completely banned as well six months before. And 40% of the market was online. So that meant that already 40% was taken away.
12:08 - 12:19
[Paddy Costall]
So there's been huge economic damage done by an awful lot of this stuff. Not to mention that the lack of availability has a huge impact on people's health.
12:19 - 12:20
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Yeah.
12:20 - 12:24
[Paddy Costall]
We've got a perfect storm here, haven't we? That's going to hit us. Yes, absolutely.
12:25 - 12:44
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
And people, because of course the idea was to save young kids, that they wouldn't start using it. That didn't happen. It got worse because they now use like these 20,000 puff random tornado vapes, which are like easily available in the black market.
12:44 - 12:47
[Paddy Costall]
What's the evidence of a growing black market?
12:49 - 13:26
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Well, of course, the statistics don't mention a lot of decrease of use. We see there is a lot of decrease of sales. So what we see is that people try it somewhere else. And our consumer organization in the Netherlands, they've done surveys and they have proof, at least from older consumers, saying we are now buying our stuff abroad or on the black market. So that's, I guess, what we can say. And we are not prepared to quit.
13:27 - 14:58
[Paddy Costall]
But your members, and I suspect an awful lot of consumers, would not object to a proper regulatory framework. Of course not. Where the products are principally, the most important thing, safe. Yes. And available and, you know, no restrictions on purchase, etc. But I think that... I mean, in the UK, we've just had this enormous mess around disposables. And, you know, the solution of our Secretary of State for Health is we ban them. He's not a very bright lad, but, you know. But it's... How do you ban it when... The only people who police this are trading standards, and they've just cut the funding for trading standards by 60%. And trading standards cover everything from children's nappies to high-end electrical goods. And I don't really think that a bit of a plastic vape's really gonna be that much of an important issue for them. But how can we go about establishing this proper regulatory framework. Because at the present moment, it seems to me that we've got lots of people shouting at each other from afar. And nobody wants to actually sit down and say, right, what's in them? What can we keep? What can't we keep? Who's going to police all of this? Who is the person who decides?
14:58 - 15:40
[David Williams]
This is going to be tricky, Paddy, because you want a proper regulatory framework. But when the government gets involved, they always go too far. And they will put such excessive regulations. If you really want to sell this product, you have to go through A through Z to sell a product. So yes. It's important, but they're gonna take advantage of that. And then we'll have high taxation, and so you're opening Pandora's box, but it has to be opened just a little bit so we don't, you know, look at prohibition in the US. Did that stop drinking? Absolutely not. Apparently not. No, it did not. So there needs to be a balance here, is that government is involved, but not too much.
15:41 - 16:52
[Paddy Costall]
That's right. I totally agree. And that's why I say who should be the regulator, because I don't actually think it should be a government regulator. I think it should be people who are acceptable to everybody. And everyone, as far as I can see, manufacturers and distributors, all they want is a level playing field. And they want to level playing field across borders. Because we have that ludicrous no cross-border advertising in the EU, all that kind of stuff. And although we're no longer members of the EU, we are straight behind all of that. Everything that they do. The only thing we don't have now is a say in what goes on. But I don't know... I get confused about where the priorities lie. Where should we be targeting our resources? Considering the resources that we're up against in terms of tobacco control, we've got very little. And this is probably the most resource-intensive event in the tobacco harm reduction space? And what do we need to be doing? What's the messaging that we need to get right? Who do we need to be talking to?
16:52 - 17:47
[David Williams]
Well, it's younger folks. I'm talking about 21 and above, is the younger folks. And this is the reason why, is that this is a generational issue, is that you have people in power that are in their 60s, 70s, and 80s, and they are not using these products. They don't understand the benefits of these products. But the longer we move forward in Congress, in the United States, we need more people in Congress that vape. We need more people in Congress that use pouches. And the same for Europe. You need your elected officials to be using these products. So I think there is going to be a generational change. And I know it's a slow process, but it has happened over the years with cannabis. I mean, look at what the cannabis people have done over the past 20 or 30 years. They have been very patient. We need to be patient. And conferences like this need to continue to happen on a regular basis for the education.
17:49 - 18:58
[Paddy Costall]
It's good to hear that. That's what we do. I think that the big challenge for us now at the moment with this event is we don't attract the regulators. We attract very few academics, and we need those people to start. When we first started this in 2014, we had all of those people. We had Public Health England here. We had professors from universities across Europe speaking. Gradually, they've been, I think, warned off. They've been threatened. And their livelihoods have been put at stake. I'm hopeful that we might be able to start getting them back. I'm very loath to change the composition of the conference. We have to have everybody in the room. All the actors need to be in here. You cannot ignore the elephant in the room that is industry.
18:58 - 19:25
[David Williams]
Let me offer you one suggestion for potentially next year, is finding a member of Congress who vapes. is finding an MP and MEP that vapes or uses these products. Have them speak, give a keynote speech. Because that, I think, will send a message that people inside government are sympathetic to what's happening outside of government. If you can find me one. I will look. I will look in the States, absolutely.
19:25 - 20:10
[Paddy Costall]
That's a good one. I mean, we're open to anything. We want to reflect... the field as a whole. We want to reflect what people think in different ways. One thing that's lacking is we don't have an awful lot of people who are implacably opposed who turn up and tell us. We did invite Stanton Glantz on one occasion about eight years ago. Still haven't had a reply. But it's kind of, we want those people here. And I don't want them here so that they can be humiliated and abused. We want them here so that we can have the conversation. Rather than, as I say, standing on two hills opposite each other shouting slogans and abuse. It's not going to get us anywhere.
20:10 - 21:03
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
No, that's right. And I think that's the fact that there is a paradox. Because we all want the same thing, but we are opposite. So it doesn't really help to say, okay, trying to convince the other party to think like you. I guess we have to use more psychology about that and say, okay, trying to bridge... and trying to first understand before you can actually talk. So don't try to start convincing the other party, but first listen. Listen to their concerns, generally listen. And I think that's lacking more and more because every party is like getting confirmation bias and so they're digging in deeper, deeper, deeper. And that will not help. And ultimately, we want the same thing.
21:04 - 21:30
[David Williams]
And I love that idea, Paddy, is to have a discussion and to have opposite sides. Because as you said, we're trying to accomplish the same thing, that Michael Bloomberg is trying to get people to stop smoking. So are we. We just have two different ways of doing this. Bloomberg wants to tax the heck out of things and make these products not available. We have a different tactic. So why not bring the two groups together and talk about this?
21:30 - 21:57
[Paddy Costall]
Absolutely. I think the theme for this event around effective communication and honesty in communication is a very, very key issue. I hope we've had an awful lot of people register for media passes for this event. And I just hope they turn up and they listen. And if they don't like it, they can say they don't like it. Tackle us on the evidence, the science, not the moral issues.
21:58 - 22:00
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
And the experience of the users.
22:01 - 22:41
[Paddy Costall]
And yes, I have to say one of the things we're proudest of is that the central feature of the Global Forum is that we build it around consumer experience. Because without them, none of this discussion takes place. But it's really, it's a very important message to the media. Just please, let's have the conversation. Don't just go away with an idea that that was wrong. Ask me why it was wrong. We're open. We'll talk to anybody and we want to be. We want to be open house. We want to have open discussion and dialogue. And it's a plea, really, to people, please come and talk to us.
22:42 - 23:19
[David Williams]
Yeah. And just for some background here, the Taxpayers Protection Alliance, we didn't get involved in GFN until last year. And I can't imagine not being here every year because we're talking about policy and policymakers and regulation. And we want to expand that. So there's other groups in the United States, policy, taxation, regulation groups that we want to bring into the fold to talk about that aspect of this because it's a reality. In the Netherlands, you have to worry about regulation and how it's closing businesses. So we need to talk more about how the government is controlling and keeping these products off the market.
23:20 - 23:55
[Paddy Costall]
So, I mean, kind of summing it up, really, we've got the whole issue about how do we regulate, who regulates. We've got the issue about how do we communicate risk and how do we actually solve this problem where people will not speak to one another. And it is as simple as that, really. I can't come into the room because he's in there or she's in there. It's a bit like having a party and people wanna see the guest list. It's just not gonna work. I can't see it being a runner.
23:57 - 24:10
[David Williams]
And social media doesn't help. I mean, you have people go on social media trying to be the biggest flame and trying to make the biggest point. It's like, let's tone it down. Let's bring people into our room and have an intellectual discussion about this.
24:10 - 24:40
[Paddy Costall]
Yeah, that's a good... I mean, there's always the concept of Chatham House, and we would be perfectly happy to host any kind of Chatham House tile event where people would come and be open and honest with each other. And that would be something to see. But... I know we're probably running a little short of time now, but I just want to get your thoughts on the rest of the time that we've got here and some of the things that are coming up and what you're actually looking forward to most.
24:42 - 25:29
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Well I guess for me when you look at Europe of course there's this TBD coming on so trying to see what we can do in that field and if there are other people thinking about the same and of course I already met people and everybody's looking at how to bring across and educate the members of parliament of course So that will be one. And also practical, like, okay, they say, okay, nicotine is bad. So trying to learn things like, okay, what is it exactly? And talking to scientists here as well. And of course, consumers. So yeah, more like practical things that I can use.
25:29 - 26:11
[David Williams]
I'm looking to meet more people. I mean, this is the first time that we've spoken, and it's great to meet you. But also looking forward to the FCTC in November. Because what happened in Panama with their COP meeting was not good for the World Health Organization. And I want countries like St. Kitts and Nevis, they were very outspoken against the WHO in 2024. And I want to make sure that they know that there are other people out there that support them. And I want a big country, like I want a significant country to say, St. Kitts and Nevis, we agree with you and we're gonna help you in November, because there needs to be more transparency and countries need to be more outspoken to retain their sovereignty when it comes to these products.
26:13 - 27:21
[Paddy Costall]
We've covered to an extent in the conference agenda, we've covered to an extent FCTC. We could have majored on it, and the reason that we chose not to was because you just get sidetracked into a kind of mindset that they're all bad, it's all terrible, and we can't do anything. I know it's possible to have an impact there. I know you did in Panama. And I know you did because they got annoyed about you. And that's when you know you're achieving something, when you piss somebody off and they get very annoyed. I've got a history of it. And I think that COP is an important thing, but I also... don't think that we should get hung up on what goes on there because what goes on there is gonna happen anyway. And what we need to be saying is there is an alternative. And we need to pursue that with vigor, particularly in places where the most absurd things are happening. And as I say, Netherlands has got that kind of, people think of the Netherlands in a certain way and then people who live there tell you what it's really like.
27:21 - 27:22
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Yeah, no, that's right.
27:23 - 27:26
[Paddy Costall]
You know, the liberal society isn't quite what one imagined.
27:26 - 28:04
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Yeah. And also, there's no, like... memory or of history so now we're like our government just of course pulled the plug so we get new elections there are new people coming in of course so what we did in 2020 of course all those people are gone we tried to educate them of course and we had talks but they are no longer there so we have to start all over again and try to get the experience of consumers across how it can actually help.
28:05 - 28:24
[David Williams]
And listen to the consumers. We want the elected officials and the bureaucrats to listen to the consumers, the success stories. We celebrate people when they quit drinking. We should celebrate people that are switching from combustible cigarettes to pouches or vaping or whatever it is. We need to celebrate those people.
28:24 - 28:26
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Absolutely, yeah.
28:26 - 29:09
[Paddy Costall]
I think when we spoke earlier, we were talking about cultural icons, and you mentioned Magic Johnson and his recovery from a life-threatening illness. And we've got people, we know, we see them in the newspapers. We see them holding a vape at the Oscars. We see them, you know, we have the England footballer who's using snus. Oh, terrible. And we see these people, but they need to be more vocal. And I think that's where I think we should put some effort in, is actually recruiting some high-profile individuals to give us a real lift.
29:09 - 29:32
[David Williams]
Absolutely. And I don't know if you just saw, but now there's a twice-a-year shot that you can take to help with AIDS and HIV. And no one's questioning that. No. No one questions the advancements in the other areas of science, yet they stop... with cigarettes. I don't know why their minds shut down when it comes to the smoking sensation.
29:33 - 29:45
[Paddy Costall]
I've just been told by my controller, because I am controlled, we have about a minute left. So if you've got any final thoughts you'd like to express, express them quickly.
29:46 - 29:53
[Dorrie Heemskerk]
Well, Mark Tindall said we're on the right side of history. And I think that's a good thing because we are.
29:54 - 30:16
[David Williams]
there's a bright future. And I think that with these products, we're gonna see a brighter future for people around the world. And it's really dependent upon the area of the world, whether it's pouches, whether it's Japan and heated, but the products are there. And we have an opportunity to really save a lot of lives, as Mark Tindall has said, that we can save a lot of lives now.
30:17 - 30:46
[Paddy Costall]
It's always nice to end something on a positive note, and I hope that that positive note continues throughout the rest of the proceedings here. I'd just like to say a big thank you to David and Dori for taking part today. And now I hope we can neatly segue to my colleague Clive Bates in the main auditorium to begin the Michael Russell oration. Thank you very much, and please keep watching. Thank you.