Part two of the interview will air on Wednesday, January 14th!
Join us for the interview with Martin Cullip as he break down the UK Tobacco and Vapes Bill, expected to become law in 2026. He explores the generational smoking ban, vaping and nicotine regulations, and potential impacts on adult users. Learn why nicotine pouches, flavor restrictions, and ministerial powers are sparking debate, and how consumers and harm-reduction advocates can make their voices heard.
Stay informed about the latest UK tobacco and vaping policies and what they mean for smokers, vapers, and the future of safer nicotine products.
Transcription:
00:04 - 01:19
[Joanna Junak]
Hello and welcome. I'm Joanna Junak and this is GFN News on gfn.tv. At the beginning of 2025, Martin Cullip, International Fellow of the Taxpayers Protection Alliance, joined us to discuss proposed changes to UK tobacco and vaping policy, specifically the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. Separately, in the middle of the year, the UK government implemented a different piece of legislation banning disposable vapes. In December, we met with Martin to get an update. In the first part of this interview, he outlines the current state of the tobacco and vape spill. In the second part, we will discuss the practical impact of the disposable vape ban in the UK and what has changed since its introduction. Hello Martin, it's good to have you back on the program. Let's start with the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. What's the current status?
01:22 - 02:34
[Martin Cullip]
The Tobacco and Vapes Bill has been caught up recently in the House of Lords. All our laws have to go through the House of Commons first and then to the House of Lords and they get read three times. We're on the last time it goes through the Lords, but there was a lot of discussion in the Lords. And I think they're finished now, but there was quite a number of meetings where all these things were gone through in detail. But what was significant, I thought, from the House of Lords was the number of Lords who were trying to add amendments to the bill, which would make it even worse. There were a number of Lords who wanted amendments. who wanted to make it a nicotine-free society instead of a tobacco-free society. They wanted to have tougher rules on vaping products. They wanted tougher rules on nicotine pouches. So there was a lot of discussion going on there. But the government has sort of stuck to the original idea wording of the bill so I think now it's finished in the laws it'll then go for a third reading in the House of Commons and then well it become law once it gone back to the House of Commons so I think it's all just done now but obviously with Christmas it's going to be punted off to the new year.
02:36 - 02:43
[Joanna Junak]
And why are discussions around the bill taking so long and which issues are causing the most debate?
02:43 - 03:31
[Martin Cullip]
um they took so long basically i think because of problems with scheduling i know the anti-smoking organizations were constantly saying you know let's get this thing moving it's taking too long um presumably they wanted it done before christmas so they could uh being a cynic um work out what campaign they're gonna be starting on next year because they won't stop with this obviously But, yeah, I think it's just scheduling. It took a long time to schedule these things in between all the other things that we've got in the UK. We've got issues of government and we've got an assisted dying bill and all sorts of very contentious issues. And we've also just had the budget. So I think it was just the scheduling. But it should happen now in the new year, I expect.
03:32 - 03:39
[Joanna Junak]
So which parts of the build do you think will be the hardest to put into practice if it becomes slow?
03:40 - 05:21
[Martin Cullip]
Well, the main part of the bill is the generational age ban, which says that it's going to be illegal to ever sell cigarettes or tobacco products to anyone born after a certain date, which I think is 1st January 2009. The benefits of that, if there will be any, will only really happen once we get to around the year 2044, I think. And also... companies, businesses have said they're going to have difficulty distinguishing between people who may be 24 or 25 because it's an ever-rising age limit. So there's going to be that. There's the constant threat, of course, that there's going to be black markets. We already have a big black market in cigarettes because of the high taxation levels we have over here. Effectively, You can buy cigarettes for about £5 in the UK. And so no matter that they say the average cost of cigarettes is £14 or £15, well, that's only the ones that you buy legally. And most people don't do that these days. There's a big black market. So that will probably end up the same with tobacco and with e-cigarettes as well. Because some of the things that are coming out for the e-cigarette part of things are... are pretty quite, you know, very damaging. They're going to talk about banning advertising. They're going to put these things, they're talking about putting them behind screens and putting them in plain packaging. This is vape products, not tobacco. So that will just make the black market more attractive than it is already. So I think it's fraught with problems. I think they've overshot what they wanted to achieve. And I think it only caused problems.
05:23 - 05:25
[Joanna Junak]
And what about nicotine powders?
05:25 - 07:28
[Martin Cullip]
Currently, nicotine pouches are only regulated under consumer regulation, so there are no age limits on them. That's the biggest problem. And it is irritating to read articles that say that this is somehow the fault of industry, because industry has been asking for age limits on nicotine pouches for a long time. I know when I was chair of the New Nicotine Alliance, we sent three letters to the Department of Health saying, please, can we have regulations so that... you know, so that young people can't access them, under 18s can't access them. And can we have some sort of limit on the nicotine content? I know there is a campaign called 20 is plenty saying that 20 milligrams should be the top. But this is not something that the industry has done. Deliberately, this is something they've been asking for and consumers have been asking for for years, you know since 2019 I think was when when I sent a letter off to Department of Health We just got replies saying no, we're quite happy at the moment. Thanks very much. So You know, it makes common sense to have pouches regulated so that only over 18s can get them. It makes sense that there should be restrictions on the nicotine limit. But that's really all they should be doing. But this is the problem that we have during the tobacco and vapes bill. Some of the lords, especially, were trying to get nicotine pouches banned. which would be a really silly thing to do. And it's almost like, do they care about reaching a smoke-free target at all? Because, you know, if you ban these products, you ban disposables, you ban vapes, you ban the flavours, you stick them behind screens, you won't allow them to be advertised, you put them in plain packaging and you ban nicotine packages, we've got no chance whatsoever of reaching smoke-free 2030. All you're going to get is increase in smoking. So hopefully there's been common sense there. an age limit for nicotine pouches and a top rate of 20 milligrams for pouches and that should be all they do really.
07:29 - 07:36
[Joanna Junak]
With the bill expected to become law in 2026, what can we expect to happen next?
07:37 - 09:20
[Martin Cullip]
Well, the problem with this legislation is it's riddled with what they call Henry VIII laws, which is it's not just saying we're going to do this, we're going to do that. It's saying we will give the Secretary of State for Health the option of doing this or doing that. And Henry VIII law means... because named after Henry VIII, who just used to rule by decree, is saying that the Secretary of State for Health can decide without going through Parliament what he wants to do. And that's obviously not just the Secretary of State for Health now, it's whichever Secretary of State for Health we have in the future. And they don't have to go through Parliament, they don't have to have any scrutiny, they can just decide, I want to do this, I want to ban flavours, or I want to ban certain kinds of vape products, or what have you. And so... there's going to be a lot of consultations coming out this they've said they're going to consult on on restricting flavors they're going to consult on plain packaging they've already had a call for evidence on tobacco and vapes bill which um which finished on december the 3rd and many organizations have put forward their their views on this but most of the items in that uh that call for evidence were not what's going to be consulted on the future so just the fact we have a tobacco and vapes bill won't be the end of the process there'll be a lot of consultations and there'll be many things that the secretary of state health can just decide for himself and and that would cause problems i think as well because people will object and there's always the the black market threat hangover all of that as well so i think it's i don't think it's going to be as cut and dried as some politicians think it's going to be and i think we could drag on with this subject for quite a long time after
09:21 - 09:34
[Joanna Junak]
Like with any legislation, there are those who support it and those who don't. Are there any groups picking up on this one? And what could it mean for adults using safer nicotine products?
09:34 - 12:01
[Martin Cullip]
Well, hopefully consumers are going to react as they've had to do almost continually in the UK towards safer nicotine products, at least. They've had to act in 2010 when the government was trying to ban vaping products within 21 days. They've had to act when it came to the EU TPD2. We're now talking about there's going to be a TPD3, another review of the TPD, where the EU is going to try and heavily tax these products and maybe ban some products as well. And now we have the tobacco and vapes bill, which is going to be threatening to do all sorts of things to safe and easy products. So consumers are going to have to be, you know, be very vocal again. Consumers can hope, I think, that some of the anti-smoking organizations might actually put up some resistance to some of the restrictions on vaping because... We all know that if all the science points to this, that when you restrict flavors or ban flavors, it leads to an increase in smoking, especially amongst youth. So we're hoping that some of the anti-smoking organizations will have some say about that. And we get to see, obviously, when we see the consultations, what they say, but they surely can't allow some of the. really aggressive talk by some of these MPs and Lords and Baronesses especially about what they'd like to do to vaping because these people obviously do not understand what they're talking about. When it came to the consultation the official consultation for the government. They only consulted with people who would agree with the Tobacco and Bates Bill. They didn't invite consumers to have their say. They didn't invite industry to have their say. So they've only got one side of the story. So we can only hope that some of the public health groups will actually tell the other side of the story. And we do have a number of public health individuals who will have their say in this. We all know of Clive Bates, but there are others in the UK who are on the side of harm reduction who will want to have their say. So hopefully they'll speak up as well. But we do need consumers to respond to these consultations. So do take your cues from consumer groups when they publicise these consultations and have your say and put your voice to the government as to what you want done with safer nicotine products. We all want safer nicotine products to be for adults only. No one wants children to use them, but Some of the measures they're putting forward are going to be very damaging for adults as well as kids.